Non-Crappy Writing Groups
By Yuvi Zalkow | January 21, 2012 |
You should be scared to hear this, but I’ve begun dabbling in the world of stop-motion animation. Even worse: low-quality, half-assed, on-my-iPhone stop-motion animation. What does this mean? This means that I wait for my toddler to take a nap and then I frantically begin playing with his stuffed animals in peculiar positions.
But wait. I should connect this to writing somehow. Otherwise Therese will regret ever letting me onto this fabulous site… Hmm… How about this: let’s use these stuffed animals to talk about writing groups…
I’ve been in plenty of writing groups over the years. I’ve also spent a lot of timing thinking about what makes a good group and what makes a not-so-good group. Here is my brief assessment:
Just to elaborate on what my goofy video tried to illustrate with caterpillars and teddy bears and crocodiles, I think it boils down to two things:
- understanding what you need at this point in your writing life
- your rapport with the others in this existing (or potential) group
When you understand what you need most, then you can structure the right sort of group. For instance, sometimes I need something as simple as a venue for me to read my neurotic prose aloud. Other times, I’m looking for a group that will look at entire novel drafts. You can’t always structure the perfect group, but I think you should at least approach a group knowing how in-line it is with your needs. Right now, my writing group is experimenting with an open-ended format where each writer has a time-slot that he or she can use however they want. This is great because it accounts for all kinds of needs, but it is risky because you need to ensure that there are ground rules that work for everyone. (For instance, you don’t want people submitting 20 pages of their work the night before the meeting.)
You also need to think carefully about the players involved in this group. The wrong person can sap the energy of the group, corrupt an otherwise productive discussion, or worst off all, leave you less motivated with your writing projects. It is key to find the right people that can support each other. But it is more than just support – ideally you want pointed and honest critiquers, writers who push you when you need a little pushing.
There also times when it is valuable not to be in a writing group at all. I know that there are months when I need to be away from all other outside voices. For instance, I prefer to work through much of the first draft material unencumbered by critiquers.
What do you think? Does this seem like more than just a vehicle for me to test out my crude animation techniques?
I’d love to hear your take on writing groups. Anyone want to share their experiences (good & bad!) with writing groups?
Yuvi Zalkow is the author of the novel I Only Cry with Emoticons (Red Hen, 2022) as well as A Brilliant Novel in the Works. His stories and essays have been published in Catapult, Narrative Magazine, Carve Magazine, Rosebud, The Los Angeles Review, and others. Yuvi received an MFA from Antioch University. He uses his poor drawing skills to make YouTube videos and mobile apps that ooze with his worries and anxiety.
Thanks for this post Yuvi, one of my aims for 2012 is to join my first ever writing, and quite frankly the entire situation is terrifying!!
The idea of reading my own things, passing over my own writing to e srutinised, and to be honest reading other people’s and having them expect me to offer some good feedback. I mean what if i give them shoddy advice???
I do think i need to join one for the experience to improve my journey. Any advice for a newbie??
Matt (Turndog Millionaire)
Hi Matt. I can totally understand the fear about giving bad advice. That is something I didn’t get to discuss in the video but it’s a valid concern. At the same time, I think it’s important not to feel under pressure to give perfect advice. In a good writing group, everyone understands that each critiquer is making subjective suggestions that the author can take or leave. And you’ll probably be surprised by your instincts and how much you can help other writers. And even better: I think getting better with critiquing others will help you be able to critique your own writing. Or at least that is my experience. Good luck!
Thanks Yuvi, this is really good advice
I suppose if you go in nice and relaxed then all will be well
And totally agree, one of the reasons i want to get involved is because i think it will help me discover how to critique my own writing
Thanks again
Matt (Turndog Millionaire)
ps. love the video. How long did it take you to do?
Good advise,
I was feaful of just the very same thing.
I was told by the leader of my group to just read one scene and then write down how I felt when I read it . Then go on to the next scene,and do the same. That will give the writer an idea of how their writting effects others. If you keep doing this you will find that you are actually helping and that is what it’s all about helping one another to better writers. JoySue,
I think the best advice for anyone just beginning their journey into the unknown land of writing groups is that which Yuvi touches on… and I will repeat in the words of the great Kenny Rogers, know when to walk away, and know when to run! There is a writing group out there for every writer, but it make take some serious searching, or some dedicated creating for you to find your proper fit!
Yuvi, I really LMAO!
I needed this. I wish I would have been able to watch this before I bought “The Writing & Critique Group Survival Guide”, which I have yet to read. Good thing I’m not in a group as of yet.
I’ve belonged to the best critique group for the past 20 years. There are just four of us, and we meet every Friday to discuss what we’ve written that week. We decided early on that our group would include published authors only because we didn’t want to use valuable time teaching someone how to write. We each have our own strengths and trust each other, which is very important. The wrong person can be disastrous.
When selecting a group, make sure it’s offering what you need. If it doesn’t, get out. You’ll harm your writing otherwise.
First (as I have testified before), I LOVE your animation/voice over lessons and observations. LOVE IT! You have a great career right there. Forget the writing.
Okay, but to the subject: I have tried ‘writer’s groups’ and have found them unsatisfying. Different agendas, uneven writing samples, egos striving to establish their intellectual dominance. Oye!
My most successful outside (of me) influence has been honest commentary from one or two trusted and knowledgable reviewers without the group dynamic mucking it up. But, that’s just me….
Animation/voice over lessons? Me? LOL! Another Lindsay Chase. My husband, however, does do voice overs, and will also have a good chuckle at the thought of me behind a mike.
If one or two trusted reviewers works for you, go with it. One size doesn’t fit all in writing.
Alex — Thanks for the kind words. I can understand your issues with writing groups. They are very tricky. So much unnecessary drama at times. Working one-on-one with a few good fellow writers is often the best way to get feedback. On the other hand, I’ve seen things come out of a constructive group dynamic that the individuals would not have come up with alone. And that keeps me intrigued by writing groups, even if I’m not always in one…
I too have been looking for a good group, mainly searching meet up. I’ve tried organized writers groups and there is a benefit to that, but as others above mention you get stuck with ‘uneven samples’ (many were writing their submissions the night before, i.e., couldn’t care less to put any time into it.)
Yes, this is a tough agenda all around. For now I am using editing services (people who offer critiques for so much per page). This is really helpful to me.
Thanks for the feedback, Kari. Yes, I’ve done editing services at times. It can be a very efficient way to get feedback. One thing that didn’t make the cut in this video was my attempt to explain the effort required to get the right writing group. Groups can be uneven and unsuitable and you usually have to work pretty hard to find a good group. I never enjoyed the dating scene so much and finding a great writing group is similar to finding a great partner in this way… lots of work, lots of duds :)
I think it’s important to set clear goals for myself in the group – what do I want? and then try out some groups to meet my needs. sounds selfish but lots of people want the same things I do. my job is to find them.
i wanted a writers group that would educate, support and enlighten me. I started the Calgary chapter of RWA. To this day, it continues to meet those needs of mine and because of our focus on professional writers (published or not) we continue to grow and evolve and meet my needs it’s all good eight years later
Love it! I was in a writer’s group that was wayyy too big (30+ people) and this line was in one of my stories: “… the music grabbed my ears and yanked me out of my head.” and one of the critiquers wrote: “Music can’t grab you by the ears–revise this.”
OY.
Well done! I was in a group with a caterpillar once. Totally ruined everything.
I think critique groups are valuable, and I’ve been in 3 different ones much like what you described. But my favorite line is your last. As valuable as a critique group is, now and then you have to step back and be alone for awhile.
Loved the video. Fun and a great review of writing groups.
Good critique is definitely something that has helped me improve my writing. I’ve been in a writing group for almost four years now and have seen members come and go, sometimes for the betterment of the group. I like having my work read out loud by the other members. I get to hear where the piece needs work.
I love the stop animation – I especially liked the part where the bourbon bottle came out. :)
I have been in one group which really helped me grow as a writer, but then we started being not so helpful to each other as critiquers. The group kind of disinegrated, and now it’s me and another writer meeting just as a support group. I honestly don’t know where to go from here. I can’t say I have missed the critiques, but I do know I need some people to honestly look at my work when I am so wrapped up in it I have no perspective. Maybe I’m just in one of those block of times where I need some space.
I’ve definitely been in groups that disintegrated. For me, finding a good writing group is a lot like dating… And after a group disintegrates or I need to leave a group, I need some time away from groups until I’m ready for another one. (Otherwise, I might jump into a rebound writing group… OK, the dating metaphor breaks down at this point…) I’ve heard stories of friends who start off slowly. Going from two people meeting to three… and then maybe four people… might be a possible way to cautiously grow a group without jumping into all the baggage that comes with a big group…
I’ve been thinking about what I need from a writing group lately and whether to add into my now tiny existing one or leave it as is (both of us still remaining are jointly considering this issue), so, along with laughing at your hilarious use of toddler toys, I got some good perspective on the range of the issue. Thanks! Maybe more than one group is an answer some of the time. I can certainly see a read aloud large group existing along side a tiny do-your-homework-in-detail before group. Now there’s an idea…. As I said, thanks!
I do think that multiple writing groups can be a useful possibility. I have some friends who are in a meet-once-every-two-months novel writing group while also in a weekly read-a-short-piece-aloud group… I sometimes like to meet with fellow writers for us to each talk about writing goals over the next few months. Not exactly a writing group, but it’s another way of meeting with writers to help each other out…
Yuvi,
I’m SO enjoying your posts. They are great. Shows how putting forth info in a newer medium can cause familiar info to resonate anew.
I do corporate communications, which includes a lot of inhouse training materials for my clients. This approach would be great for some of our courses…. I’m going to investigate further.
Do you ever have a chance to use your presentations in your work as a technical writer? A new sideline for you maybe . . . ?
Thanks again for the great post!
Sheri
Thanks, Sheri! So far, I haven’t crossed over into using this form for technical writing. Unfortunately, my current day job is too conservative and serious for this kind of playful method, but I definitely have a fantasy of turning this form into something I can do by day…
FYI, if you want to hear more about the technical details of what tools I use to build these presentations so that you might do something like this, I did a short presentation about making presentations: https://yuvizalkow.com/presentations/failedpresos/
It doesn’t address stop-motion animation (since this is my first experiment in that realm), but it covers all the other tools that I use…
Good luck!
AACK! Yuvi, I always LOVE your posts and there’s no video. Did everyone else get to see it?
Patti
Patricia —
I haven’t heard any other comments about the video not loading. Perhaps restart your browser or computer or try another browser? Or you can get to it directly on vimeo here:
I’m in three very different writers’ groups in Lancaster, Mass.
One of them dissects well-known writing to examine form, content, voice and other writing elements. One meets to write spontaneously for 20 minutes, then read and discuss. The third is for writers intending on publication, and meets to critique others’ writing and offer their own in return. All three help me immerse myself in the writing life, offer new ideas and help to ferret out weaknesses. Our town library gave birth to them all!
Impressive!
I love the way you cover three distinct aspects of the writing life with your three groups. I do not currently have a group where we dissect well known writing, though I’ve done that in previous groups, and I think that is something so valuable that is also unfortunately rare in a writing group. It can sometimes be more informative than looking at one’s own writing…
Fun animation! I enjoyed it and it helped me visualize the writing group styles and potential problems as well as positive moments. I’ve been a member of a handful of writing groups. The best one lasted over a year, and came out of a class that I had taken. Unfortunately, I moved too far away to make it work. A two+ hour drive twice a week didn’t make sense with small children at home.
I’ve tried a number of writing groups since then, and . . . they were painful experiences. I haven’t found that positive encouragement with blunt honesty and a push combination in quite a while. I’ve gotten blunt criticism with a “if you actually had been published in literary magazines you would understand” experience but that wasn’t too helpful. Or the “why would you write that?” comments.
I keep meaning to try another group, but I’ve gotten a little shy of them.
Yeah, I’m often gun shy after being in a group with that kind of negative energy. I think it’s smart to approach groups with caution. And you’ve definitely characterized the more destructive kind of feedback. Blunt is only good if it is with the intent of helping the author achieve what they are trying to achieve…
What a voice – I could listen and listen . . . and listen *smiling*
Love that you use your toddler’s stuffed toys – teheehe :-D and in particular the bourbon part, though I’d go for some Vodka, yes.
I miss my writing group. I do have one here in the little mountain town, but its dynamic is quite different from the one when I lived in Baton Rouge, and I rarely attend (though I am better about it lately). But that first writers’ group -oh, what a n exerperience. Every other Saturday, this strange group of people would gather around the table at the B&N coffee area and from there any manner of crapadoodle doo could happen. That group was the beginning of my first novel – I just didn’t know that at the time.
. . . still hearing that smooth wonderful voice in my pea-head, too.
PS – they used to call me the “simon cowell” of the group = lawd! I wonder if that was a compliment . . . hmmm. :-D
I’ve only watched a few rounds of that-show-I-can’t-remember-the-name-of with Simon Cowell in it. He wasn’t necessarily graceful, but at his best, he sure seemed to deliver important words to artists, even if they were hard to hear at first. I’m recalling a time where he basically said, “you’re not ready. work like hell in this area and come back”. I would prefer a group with Simon Cowell than a group without anyone challenging the writers. I like those different perspectives so much…
All TV shows aside, good luck with your writing and finding the right group…
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Yuvi,
Thanks for this post! You shared some outstanding insights and I loved the video. You made great use of your toddler’s toys. I especially liked the effects of the bourbon on the stuffed animals. Well-done! As for writing groups, I’ve been a member of several and the two key issues you raise (understanding what you need and your rapport with the group) are important considerations. If a writer is in a writer’s group and he or she is not getting anything out of it, it’s time to find a different group. I’m fortunate to belong to a terrific local writers’ group that meets at a public library in the region. The members have a sharp critical eye, but never get nasty. There’s a self-policing that goes on in the group dynamic that keeps everybody on their best behavior.
Once again, thank you for a tremendous post.
Thanks, CG. You covered another important quality that I didn’t mention: policing. Some groups — like yours — everyone self-polices; some groups have a designated person who makes sure that the ground rules are being followed. Either way, it’s important to have some force(s) ensuring that the group stays on track and sticks to a high standard.
A caveat: I have been holed up with my children for eleven days straight (son’s flu, MLK Day, five snow days, MY stomach flu, my daughter’s stomach flu).
But even if I hadn’t gone recently crazy, I’m pretty sure I would have still burst out laughing at this line: “And, when people are having sex with each other in the group, that can mess things up.”
Talk about perfect comedic timing!
Thank you for this spot of sunshine in my dreary day. I, like Anne, have been in a group with a puffy caterpillar who takes everyone out with her hind quarters. Man it’s ugly.
(I like the Eric Carle shout-out on the top of your Mac.)
Wow. Eleven days! Hope things get back on track soon.
Yeah, the horny snake/crocodile scene was a little too much fun to film. :)
Thanks for the feedback. Take care.
~yuvi
I love my writing group (www.weheartya.com) more than anything. They are my cheerleaders, editors, sounding board, etc. Without them, there’s no way my book would be as awesome as it’s going to be.
But it took me a few years to find them. I tried an online writing forum, but that was too big, too loose. Then I used meetup.com to find a couple local writing groups, and I had to visit a few before I found one that felt like it might work. I stuck with that one for several years, and eventually 3 other women joined who I really clicked with. We started meeting once a week in addition to the big group, and finally we broke off to focus on our own work. It’s been magic ever since.
I belong to a writers club and an internet critiquing group. For effectiveness, the online group is by far best as it is concise, focused and no extraneous crap being foisted by anyone onto anyone.
The writers club on the other hand is hit and miss on being a useful critique forum as personal agendas, egos and at times substandard practise sessions become time wasters. However, the group interaction and moments of clarity and brilliance make it worthwhile to continue belonging to it.
The writer must ascertain his/her needs and seek out groups who satisfy those — or not if being a lone wolf is your bent.
Thanks for the post, my groups have helped with my writing immensely and I recommend them highly.
I just watched the video – very coo! I’ll have to try this out sometime when doing an instructional presentation.
Cheers
LOVE the part about the group telling you in short pieces “great voice” and longer pieces “get this guy out of his f’ing” room. Such a good point . . . you often have to see longer pieces to really help someone (and be helped in return).
Well done as usual!
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I want more posts with teddy bears, crocodiles and caterpillars!
Totally agree about needing the right combination of people for the group to work. I have been in a group with a participant whose casually cruel critique was disastrous to the less confident members of the group. It can be hard to shut such a person down.
It can take a while to get the mix right – the group (of four) that I’ve been associated with more or less selected itself from a far less successful larger group, so we already knew one another’s strengths and weaknesses as writers and as critique buddies.
This is my very favorite variety of post–LMAO even as I’m gleaning valuable content. Honestly, Yuvi, you might consider taking this show on the road :-) It’s brilliant!
I have never been in a writing group, although since my best buddy and I have been writing since jr.high we do send each other projects via email. Even then that’s generally when a piece is finished and we just want a “so, what’da’ya think” opinion. Thus definitely not the same as a group going the distance from start to finish.
I’m in two groups, and it’s like night and day. In one, a score of relatively inexperienced writers gather to share their work, which isn’t conducive for generating critique — there just isn’t enough time, and the facilitation is uneven — but it does create some camaraderie and I think it’s always helpful to read aloud and see people’s reactions.
But this is not where I go to get help on *how* to improve what I’ve got. That’s the task of my small group. There’s space to have a full conversation, whether it’s about plot and character, creating voice through sentence structure, or the intricacies chapter breaks and dialogue tagging. We have ground rules for going about the critique process, but they’re more like springboards for diving into some lively discussions.
Like Juliet’s small group, we self-selected out of the larger group. On the one hand, we all get along with each other quite well. On the other hand, we might not be as hard on our weaknesses as we could be: we’re all amateurs, and struggle with getting to the grist of what isn’t working.
I listened! And, laughed. It uses our senses and emotions to emphasis a message full of truths. Good job! Want to see, ah hear, more like this.
Good show, Yuvi, and thanks. I like the phrase “outside insight.” Reminds me of another phrase a fellow writer coined–instead of “fresh eyes,” she said “outside eyes,” which is maybe even more to the point.
“outside eyes”. That’s great. Thanks!
Oh, I love your stop-action animation, Yuvi. Just wait until your son is old enough to do it with you!
Now “non-crappy” is my new favorite adjective.
You make excellent points about identifying the needs a writer meets through writing groups. I would just add the caution that, because writing groups are composed of peers rather than authorities, it’s important to know the difference between a writing group and an editor. This is especially important when you’re dealing with trolls—and, I know, we’ve all met them—or (as you mentioned!) the urge to play a little sideline slap-&-tickle.
I’ve seen the bad advice that gets passed around in some of the more visible online critique groups. It is out there.
A good group will circumvent this problem by focusing upon creating a warm, safe atmosphere where issues can be discussed in-depth and with great, good-hearted creativity, raising more questions than answers, so each writer feels empowered to explore their stories and characters to the fullest possible extent.
Writers can find answers to specific problems in any number of excellent books on writing (which can also serve as wonderful fodder for discussion)—or, of course, ask me in the upcoming Writer Unboxed newsletter!
I think I’m going to make the motto for Ask Victoria: “Just the one whiskey bottle, thanks to Yuvi.”
Great to hear from you, Victoria. And yes, I agree with your caution about misconstruing the role of a peer and the role of an editor. That can be a real problem with a group. Though I think editor-like feedback can be helpful as long as they are delivered at the right stage of a project, AND as long as the skill levels and expectations are well understood.
I look forward to reading more of your writing here and at your website and elsewhere!
I think it’s important to find a writing group of mainly like-minded people, which can be difficult, but well worth the effort.
However, I find the most valuable critique and support to come from two close friends, which are relationships that have been cultivated over time, and relationships like that can begin at a writing group!
Loved this, as always, Yuvi. (Your position is safe, no worries!) Thanks for a fun post.
[…] this post from Writer Unboxed, Yuvi Zalkow talks about the different kinds of writing groups and includes […]
[…] It took many years for me to find a great group (as you can tell from my writing group video), and at different times different groups served me best. The group that helped me get the […]